In the quest to find a decent caster against Haley2 my regular Protectorate opponent has started looking into Amon. Can sheer spam be the answer?
:: Lists ::
Cygnar:
Major Victoria Haley - WJ: +25
- Squire - PC: 5
- Stormwall - PC: 39 (Battlegroup Points Used: 25)
- Lightning Pod
- Thorn - PC: 13
- Ironclad - PC: 12
Journeyman Warcaster - PC: 4
- Firefly - PC: 8
Lanyssa Ryssyl, Nyss Sorceress - PC: 3
Ragman - PC: 4
Storm Lances - Leader & 2 Grunts: 12
Opponent:
:: Pre-Battle Thoughts & Deployment ::
We were playing Outlast and the Protectorate took the initiative. I deployed the Stormwall slightly to the left and flanked by Ironclad + Thorn with the rest on the other flank. The idea was to devastate the center bottom of 2 and work attrition from there.
:: Game ::
Protectorate run their jacks up with Shielding. The foremost Crusader has Fortify.
I spread out Lances, run up Firefly and put Thorn + Ironclad in a trench. The Stormwall shoots off a significant number of boxes on a Crusader with Acceleration.
The Protectorate keep pushing jacks with the Fortify guy in front with Enliven.
I figure that I can block off the Crusader with Enliven by running up a Firefly and have the Ironclad charge the wounded Crusader. This is worth feating for and I can even get Ragman in for the Stormwall so that I'm dice +1 instead of dice -1 on the guy with Fortify. Unfortunately this move means giving up the Firefly but I don't think it's a big deal really.
To solve the Dervish running up to jam Lances on my right I need a TK on a Lance. I also need a TK on the Ironclad so there's no focus for Temporal on the Stormwall. Unfortunately this means that I have to rely on the Stormwall's 4 attacks to kill the charged Crusader. Not only do I fail to do so but I also fail to cripple both the cortex and its strong arm.
The wonderful alpha turns out to be really shit as the Crusader with Fortify is now loaded up with focus and kills the Ironclad. I also lose the Firefly.
This is pretty messy to get back from. I need to take out as many jacks as I can and disrupt the rest. Again the Stormwall keeps missing its 4s to hit so I don't deal as much damage as I'd hoped to, however this time around the jacks are all disabled or disrupted at least and eleaps + pod take out the remaining repair dudes.
Synergy is built and Amon is able to clear both zones. A mistake on my part to not have the Stormwall cover the left zone but too late to fix that now. I also lose Thorn and the Lances because I didn't know he had Field Marshal Parry. Not sure if it would've saved me regardless but I might've considered getting Lanyssa in the zone for example. Anyway, he moves to 2 CP and I have only the Stormwall left basically.
I try to move to the left zone and kill as many jacks as possible but without Ragman and again missing a 4+ the damage just isn't there. Squire and Lanyssa move to contest the zone.
Squire gets cleaned out by Devout and Lanyssa by a Crusader after the other jacks have built synergy on the Stormwall.
With Amon at 4 points I can't even remotely contest him. It's down to an assassination run. Unfortunately the Covenant has come into a position which denies me Temporal Acceleration on the Stormwall altogether unless I kill it. I have to provide the Stormwall with 2 focus and TA costs 3 so that leaves Haley with 3 focus to buy attacks plus her initial to deal with it. Junior moves first and puts another box on it so it's down to 3 boxes. 4 attacks from Haley however fail to kill it and thus I have no focus left to TA the Stormwall.
We do however roll out the assassination run to see if it would have succeeded assuming the Covenant had gone down. On the very last shot Amon loses his last box but makes his tough test to survive regardless.
:: Evaluation ::
I've played a lot of Haley3 lately and some of my positioning game is a little off here. Ragman gets into a clumsy position bottom of 1 from which he can't help the Ironclad in the next turn for example and the Lances are too easily jammed up. However what effectively loses me the same is my inability to kill the Crusader with Fortify, which costs me the Ironclad. From here on out I'm actually still up on attrition and indeed I would've taken out all of his models eventually if scenario was not a thing. Christian played this really well though and got the opening he needed in time to force me to abandon attrition.
How did the Crusader survive? The obvious answer is that I rolled poorly, missing my charge attack (which I future sight boosted to hit though), and the last initial. However statistically it's kind of a risky move to rely on the Stormwall's 4 attacks alone. Dice happen and I should have looked for backup angles. With the TK on the Ironclad I could've moved it further, Thorn was in range etc. Fortify preventing knockdown is obviously an important thing to consider here.
At the end of the day a very interesting game. My inexperience with Amon shows itself but I also play a poor game as I don't move Stormwall to contest scenario for example and essentially throw away the Firefly as a pod could probably have prevented Enliven. Regardless of all of this, I think this list is thus far the best answer I've seen from the Protectorate against Haley2. That is really cool and I can only imagine how happy Christian feels having finally bested me in Mk. 3 after months of steamrolled games. A well deserved win and a list which definitely has game into Haley2. Obviously, I need to practice more and figure out how to deal with this because I'm positive Haley2 has the tools to do so!
High Allegiant Amon Ad-Raza - WJ: +29
- Hierophant - PC: 3
- Crusader - PC: 10 (Battlegroup Points Used: 10)
- Crusader - PC: 10 (Battlegroup Points Used: 10)
- Crusader - PC: 10 (Battlegroup Points Used: 9)
- Crusader - PC: 10
- Crusader - PC: 10
- Crusader - PC: 10
- Dervish - PC: 7
- Devout - PC: 9
Allegiant of the Order of the Fist - PC: 3
Allegiant of the Order of the Fist - PC: 3
The Covenant of Menoth - PC: 4
Vassal of Menoth - PC: 3
Wrack - PC: 1
Wrack - PC: 1
Vassal Mechanik - PC: 1
Vassal Mechanik - PC: 1
Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 4
Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 4
:: Pre-Battle Thoughts & Deployment ::
We were playing Outlast and the Protectorate took the initiative. I deployed the Stormwall slightly to the left and flanked by Ironclad + Thorn with the rest on the other flank. The idea was to devastate the center bottom of 2 and work attrition from there.
:: Game ::
Protectorate run their jacks up with Shielding. The foremost Crusader has Fortify.
I spread out Lances, run up Firefly and put Thorn + Ironclad in a trench. The Stormwall shoots off a significant number of boxes on a Crusader with Acceleration.
The Protectorate keep pushing jacks with the Fortify guy in front with Enliven.
I figure that I can block off the Crusader with Enliven by running up a Firefly and have the Ironclad charge the wounded Crusader. This is worth feating for and I can even get Ragman in for the Stormwall so that I'm dice +1 instead of dice -1 on the guy with Fortify. Unfortunately this move means giving up the Firefly but I don't think it's a big deal really.
To solve the Dervish running up to jam Lances on my right I need a TK on a Lance. I also need a TK on the Ironclad so there's no focus for Temporal on the Stormwall. Unfortunately this means that I have to rely on the Stormwall's 4 attacks to kill the charged Crusader. Not only do I fail to do so but I also fail to cripple both the cortex and its strong arm.
The wonderful alpha turns out to be really shit as the Crusader with Fortify is now loaded up with focus and kills the Ironclad. I also lose the Firefly.
This is pretty messy to get back from. I need to take out as many jacks as I can and disrupt the rest. Again the Stormwall keeps missing its 4s to hit so I don't deal as much damage as I'd hoped to, however this time around the jacks are all disabled or disrupted at least and eleaps + pod take out the remaining repair dudes.
Synergy is built and Amon is able to clear both zones. A mistake on my part to not have the Stormwall cover the left zone but too late to fix that now. I also lose Thorn and the Lances because I didn't know he had Field Marshal Parry. Not sure if it would've saved me regardless but I might've considered getting Lanyssa in the zone for example. Anyway, he moves to 2 CP and I have only the Stormwall left basically.
I try to move to the left zone and kill as many jacks as possible but without Ragman and again missing a 4+ the damage just isn't there. Squire and Lanyssa move to contest the zone.
Squire gets cleaned out by Devout and Lanyssa by a Crusader after the other jacks have built synergy on the Stormwall.
With Amon at 4 points I can't even remotely contest him. It's down to an assassination run. Unfortunately the Covenant has come into a position which denies me Temporal Acceleration on the Stormwall altogether unless I kill it. I have to provide the Stormwall with 2 focus and TA costs 3 so that leaves Haley with 3 focus to buy attacks plus her initial to deal with it. Junior moves first and puts another box on it so it's down to 3 boxes. 4 attacks from Haley however fail to kill it and thus I have no focus left to TA the Stormwall.
We do however roll out the assassination run to see if it would have succeeded assuming the Covenant had gone down. On the very last shot Amon loses his last box but makes his tough test to survive regardless.
Sadly, a loss to the Swans
:: Evaluation ::
I've played a lot of Haley3 lately and some of my positioning game is a little off here. Ragman gets into a clumsy position bottom of 1 from which he can't help the Ironclad in the next turn for example and the Lances are too easily jammed up. However what effectively loses me the same is my inability to kill the Crusader with Fortify, which costs me the Ironclad. From here on out I'm actually still up on attrition and indeed I would've taken out all of his models eventually if scenario was not a thing. Christian played this really well though and got the opening he needed in time to force me to abandon attrition.
How did the Crusader survive? The obvious answer is that I rolled poorly, missing my charge attack (which I future sight boosted to hit though), and the last initial. However statistically it's kind of a risky move to rely on the Stormwall's 4 attacks alone. Dice happen and I should have looked for backup angles. With the TK on the Ironclad I could've moved it further, Thorn was in range etc. Fortify preventing knockdown is obviously an important thing to consider here.
At the end of the day a very interesting game. My inexperience with Amon shows itself but I also play a poor game as I don't move Stormwall to contest scenario for example and essentially throw away the Firefly as a pod could probably have prevented Enliven. Regardless of all of this, I think this list is thus far the best answer I've seen from the Protectorate against Haley2. That is really cool and I can only imagine how happy Christian feels having finally bested me in Mk. 3 after months of steamrolled games. A well deserved win and a list which definitely has game into Haley2. Obviously, I need to practice more and figure out how to deal with this because I'm positive Haley2 has the tools to do so!
Thanks for another interesting read. :)
SvarSlettI'm curious about the change in the Haley2 list compared to the one you had at Ironmoot. If I'm not mistaken you've taken Arlan and the Tinker out for the benefit of Lanyssa and Ragman. Any particular matchup you are targeting with this change?
I think that Death Field is generally more useful than repair & +1 focus (I hardly ever use evasive). It's basically a meta call and I see a lot of ARM/box-skew lists (this report is an excellent example) these days. Lanyssa is also brilliant and was only ditched in the first place because I wanted the Minuteman vs Wurmwood. Now my pair is Haley2 + Haley3 and I intend to drop the latter vs Circle so that point is void.
SlettI hope that satisifes your curiousity :)
It does indeed; thanks for the in-depth explanation. :)
SlettFWIW I will take your Haley2 and Caine2 lists along to my tournament premiere next weekend. I figured that 1) They're pretty close model-wise so I can hopefully assemble that in time, and 2) The intel I can get from your reports will widely overshadow the handful of WHM games I've played up to this point. :)
Sounds good :) Good luck, let me know how it goes!
Slett